User talk:Matt shade
Welcome Hi, welcome to Underworld Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the User talk:Sannse page. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- CatherineMunro (Talk) 23:34, March 7, 2010 ello! any thing i can do? ♥Luna♥ Hello! Well, AlessiaGallant pointed out Michael's need for blood so I was going to add it as a Weakness on his page and the Hybrids page so that's something if you want to try your hand at editing. She also says Hybrid Marcus was burned by the sun but I can't remember. Can you? Matt shade 11:47, May 22, 2010 (UTC)Matt Shade Selene's Age I noticed you added that Selene may be 800, but I don't see how this is possible. According to the book, the events of RotL take place in 1402, and the events of the first two movies take place somewhere between 2002 and 2003. Selene was turned 'the winter of Lucian's escape', which means she's slightly over 600 years old by the time of the two movies. Unless there's a major goof, there's no way she's 800. Of course, it wouldn't shock me to find they changed her age, since she was originally 121 in the first movie, but then suddenly jumped to 600. 13:49, May 31, 2010 (UTC) ::I haven't read the RotL book yet so I was not aware of the 1402 date. There is a goof somewhere. If we review: William is captured 1202, Lucian is born two decades after both species came into existence, we see Sonja is roughly the same age and we see her being given the pendant by Viktor as a child and we also see Selene playing with the pendant as a child (of course, to be fair, the pendant could be much older than William's prison). On a sidenote, if we take into account Selene's comment about Viktor sparing William's life to not kill off his slaves (which he didn't have until Lucian was around 12) Lucian would have to be born before 1190 AD (of course, Tanis doesn't respond to Selene's comment so that's flimsy). Most likely, Kate Beckinsale's RotL voiceover was intended to go "two centuries".Matt shade 15:18, May 31, 2010 (UTC) :::The 1402 date is given by both the first and second books, and is implied in the third book. I think the pendant is a major goof. It's impossible for Selene to be more than 600 years old, and that makes the entire storyline of the first movie a plothole (she would have known about Sonja, known about how the war started, known the truth about Lucian, etc.), as well as the age given for Selene in the second book wrong, and Tanis' statement to Selene. He says her family was killed the winter of Lucian's escape, which means Selene was still human in 1402. According to the production notes of UWE, Selene is 600 years old. So the pendant thing is just another goof and definitely wrong. There's no way she's 800. 20:38, May 31, 2010 (UTC) ::::Of course if Selene was closer to 800, everything else would also have happened nearly 800 years ago but I have thought about many scenarios (for example that Viktor kept slaves like Tanis, Lucian was born around 1218, Sonja 1220, Selene about 1270, Sonja's key pendant is borrowed by Viktor to fit the bigger key to William's prison, Sonja dies about 1290 and Selene is made a vampire that winter but never meets Lucian before his "death" around 1350 = Selene's age 730, the Chain intact, almost all dialogue intact). This is because I view the movies as primary canon and the books secondary but I don't expect others to do the same. But now this raises questions for me whether to change the Timeline page since it reflects my thinking whereas I wanted it to be objective. Hmm, quite the dilemma.Matt shade 23:22, May 31, 2010 (UTC) :::::Well, since there are two different canon sources definitively stating she's 600 (the books and the production notes), it's definitely something that needs to stay at 600. Though I think it would have made her character more believable if they had left her at her original age, tbh. 01:39, June 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I personally don't consider those as canon sources if they conflict with the movies (not that I don't try to resolve a conflict, as you might have noticed :)). I also preferred her at ca 130 but it was obviously done to tie her to William's prison.Matt shade 09:42, June 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Neither of those sources conflict with the movies. You're just reading way too much into a goof in a series known for goofs and continuity errors (Lucian's brand, Sonja's pendant, timeline issues, etc.). Selene being 800 makes no sense in the canon because multiple materials tell us Selene was raised by Viktor. It is impossible that she be raised by Viktor, but not know anything of the Lycan slaves or Lucian or Sonja. None of it makes any logical sense, so it must be yet another goof. 16:42, June 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::What are you talking about? They do conflict with the movies, and I never said anything about not being raised by Viktor. And most of the vampires who knew how Sonja died were killed in RotL, it is not impossible very few have even heard of it (Kraven for example may only know from the lycans, for all we know) or that no one dared to speak a word of it to Viktor's Death Dealer adopted daughter when even looking into the past is a crime in itself. Not that I have any personal stake in whether she's 600 or thousands of years old, I just enjoy trying to figure it out. 19:52, June 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::::The dates given in the books do not conflict with the movies because we're never told exactly when RotL takes place. We're never told precisely how old Lucian and Sonja are at the time of the movie, so what we don't know can't conflict with the books. For all we know, Viktor may have used the pendant precisely because Marcus had seen Sonja wearing it before and therefore wouldn't suspect. We don't know how long Selene and her father even had the key (though I think it's more likely just another goof in a series already full of them). The books specifically put the time at 1402, and there was even a line in the original script for UWE with Selene stating it had been 600 years since she had seen the sun. All evidence says she's 600. 23:16, June 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Those aren't the droi... conflicts that I meant, I meant other conflicts renders the dates in those sources unreliable as to being canon. It's Greg Cox trying his best but Wiseman and the others don't seem to keep him in the loop, so to speak. Basically I'm saying I would rather go with the movie goof than a book adaptation because the next movie might too. But that's not saying you have to. (Also if Viktor was awake in 1403 then the Chain is more complex than most fans think, but I already suspected that for years :) ) Oh, and I changed it to trivia, by the way. Matt shade 23:39, June 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::But the production notes also specifically say she's 600, citing a line from the script in which Selene says she hasn't been able to see the sun for 600 years. That means the writers intended her to be 600 as well, and Greg was not just making up the numbers. 23:56, June 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Yes, and for the first movie they intended her to be 127. It doesn't matter until it is conclusively established in the movie universe. I just edited the trivia though I fear you will call it speculation. Matt shade 00:09, June 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::It is speculation, though it has slightly more reason for being there than the Sonja spec. The script itself, even if the line didn't make it into the final film, is pretty conclusive. Since there's nothing flat-out disagreeing with it, it counts the same as a deleted scene. Add that to all three books agreeing on the date of RotL, and it's really hard to argue it. I've been trying to dig up the scripts themselves, but it seems none of them were ever released (still trying to figure out why they never release the scripts I want to read, ever. it's like they know I'll be looking for them or something). So far, I've found the script to the first movie available for purchase, so I may end up coughing up the money for that one. Honestly, I think the age issues, timeline issues, appearances issues, etc. all comes down to sloppiness on the part of the writers. I've never seen one series with so many blatant inconsistencies. I think I agree with Majin on the RotL board, when he/she said that it's all summed up in Len's quote about no one noticing the difference in Sonja's appearance: they just assume no one's going to pay attention, or notice when they don't notice themselves. It kinda bugs me, but I still love the first two films, so what can I do? :) 00:25, June 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::Pointing out the possibilities is the lion's share of speculation so you're not wrong. As for the rest, we're much alike so don't forget, it bugs us because we love it. :) Matt shade 00:38, June 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::I can't believe I didn't remember this earlier, but the movie itself does confirm Selene's age. In the opening monologue for UWE, Selene says 'For six centuries I was a loyal soldier of the vampire clan'. So the pendant thing has to be a goof. 18:24, June 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::That's true and Alexander also says 'your 600 year quest to avenge your family' but the bit about unrevealed continuity stands on its own merit, just like the bit about Michael's filling in the blanks. Matt shade 22:54, June 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::I'm sorry, but I no longer see where it does. There are now three different sources (the movies, the books, the production notes) all flat-out stating she's 600 years old. That means it's a goof, or Viktor took the pendant and gave it to Selene's dad before returning it to Sonja. You can't look at all that evidence and still claim there's any possibility that she's 800 years old. Unless the filmmakers come out and say it, it's simply incorrect to believe she's older than 600 years. If you want to challenge a canon established in no less than 3 different official sources, you're gonna need a lot more than speculating over a scene that could easily mean something else. If more evidence comes out suggesting she's older, then it would be more than speculation, but right now, I really don't see any possible way they could have meant for her to be 800. 23:50, June 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::::Again you misunderstand me. The point about the unrevealed continuity is how she can be 600 and it still doesn't have to be a goof. The same goes for Michael's memory of Sonja. People can say they're plotholes all they want but there are ways to see them as not being. Otherise it's like saying "Viktor says the Elders leapfrogged for 140 centuries! Plothole!" when Wiseman & Co are perfectly free to change their mind later and make Viktor a liar. Matt shade 09:20, June 3, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::::::If it's just that Viktor took the pendant from Sonja and gave it to Selene, before returning it, then it has no meaning because her age is still 600; if it's a goof, it has no meaning; if you're suggesting they changed Selene's age, then you're going to need a lot more evidence before it becomes more than far-fetched speculation. Either way, it has no place in a wiki article when what you're suggesting is a straight contradiction to multiple canon sources. Contradicting the books and production notes, I can get - to an extent. When it contradicts the movie, it's too speculative for a wiki. It's easily possible that Viktor took the pendant from Sonja, gave it to Selene's dad as he completed the project, and then gave it back - knowing that Marcus would never notice it was missing at all since he was in hibernation during that time. For all we know, Sonja knew about William and his prison and knew what her necklace was being used for. But since it's all speculation, none of it has a place on the wiki. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your help, and I'm not just arguing to argue. I honestly do not believe such a speculative subject belongs on a wiki, unless more evidence can be found supporting it. 14:52, June 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::I understand but it is not only speculation, it is the truth. I was never suggesting anyone intended to make Selene 800 years old but the pendant thing does "somewhat imply" she is unless we point out ways the movies may not be contradicting themselves, like the pendant could very well be 200 years older than her. Hence it belongs on this wiki. I'm not adamant on it being here but the principle of the thing is non-negotiable. Not that I don't appreciate you having a different opinion, it just seems to me you're a bit quick to label speculation as unfounded. There are things that look like discontinuity until you realize they don't have to be , it's that simple . Matt shade 16:13, June 3, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::::The only true part is that Viktor gave Sonja a pendant when she was a child. Everything else is pure speculation and guesswork. Not only can you not prove that it means Selene was already born, but what you're suggesting is in contradiction with the canon. So yes, your speculation is largely unfounded. As I pointed out, it could easily mean other things, such as Sonja willingly allowing Viktor to use the pendant for a short time as a key. Saying Selene might be 800 changes the canon facts from the second movie, and you're going to need more proof than a scene that might imply that, while easily actually meaning something else. 16:41, June 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::::In how many ways do you want me to put this? I was not saying Selene might be 800, I was saying RotL can lead an audience to think that if they do not recognize the scene doesn't have to mean that. I pointed out child Sonja having the key long before child Selene before you did. That is not unfounded speculation, just as saying Michael may possibly have interpreted a memory wrong is not unfounded speculation, it is pointing out a possibility, like if two people say contradicting things in two Star Wars sequels, saying "One of them may be lying" is not unfounded speculation, it barely qualifies as speculation at all. Matt shade 17:17, June 3, 2010 (UTC) ::Not a lot of people will confuse the scene, and sorting that out is for message boards. The simple fact is the scene could mean many things, and so it doesn't have a place here. Since it appears you're getting frustrated and angry over the whole thing, it needs to be dropped. Point is, everything about what might have happened with the scene is speculation, except for the scene itself. So it doesn't belong here. Truthfully, even the Sonja thing doesn't belong because it's your own personal interpretation of why Sonja's blonde, though we know this isn't really why, and there are likely other interpretations for it. 23:31, June 3, 2010 (UTC) ::Who's angry? You're right about the interpretation but it cuts both ways, since you could be the one confusing the scene. That's the whole point about having it on the wiki, you've been acting from the beginning like I want people to believe Selene is 800 or that the pendant is old or that Michael altered the memory, which was just never ''the case. But putting the equivalent of "There's no canon explanation for this but it can easily be explained away if we don't make certain assumptions but we're not going to give you a single '''example' how since that would be speculation" is silly IMHO. Calling the other person angry so the matter 'should' be dropped, what is that about? Matt shade 08:34, June 4, 2010 (UTC)